Ahmadinejad served Israel's interests: Karroubi

A year after hundreds of thousands of Iranians poured onto the streets to protest President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's disputed re-election on June 12, 2009, the Persian section of alarabiya.net held an exclusive interview with Iranian reformist and opposition leader Mehdi Karroubi, who has been distinguished along the past year with his frankness and strictness in refusing the legitimacy of Ahmadinejad and in revealing the torture to which the detainees were exposed to in Iran's prisons.

Karroubi, who is one of the leading reformist trio in Iran that includes Mirhossein Mausavi and former president Mohammed Khatami, alleged that the detained protesters have been savagely raped in Iran's prisons.

Karroubi, who was a presidential candidate in 2009 election, chaired the Martyrs Association that took care of the families of martyrs of the Iraq-Iran war and the revolution. He was also a former parliament speaker.

The interview went as follows:

Green Movement

*Mr Karroubi, less than a month from now, the Green Movement will be a year old, you and Mr Mousavi announced in February that you would determine the strategy of the Green Movement and inform the people about it. Could you please explain this strategy?

There is a small introduction and it is that the regime made the issue so complicated and intricate. The basis for this Movement was protesting [last June’s] election results. But it was also about other election results, because in recent years intractable forces had existed during other elections too. This recent election led to an explosion of the massive demonstrations and the people’s protests. This is why the people’s slogan was “Give our votes back.” This is what we wanted too, as well as the formation of a trusted committee to examine the elections because we believes that if it were to be examined accurately and impartially, the election would have been annulled.

The fraud in this election was so monumental that no amount of reasoning could explain it. Therefore at the heart of our Movement was the election fraud and the fact that we must try to hold fair and free elections.

Unfortunately, because of the special events, the pressures and the imprisonments, up until now we have not dealt with the question of strategies in order to prevent an increase in the number of arrests. But at the very minimum, our demands are [an implementation] of the constitution which states that we can have free press and newspapers as well as the freedom to assemble without arms. We have made a request for holding free elections. This is the essence of our protest movement.

More demonstrations urged

*You referred to assembly. In your interviews and messages, you have invited people to take part in protests marking the first anniversary of the election. Do you intend to participate in these demonstrations? And do you think that the regime will grant your supporters authorisation to protest?

Our responsibility is to submit our request. We have made requests for holding demonstrations but the regime claimed that we hadn’t done so, when in fact we had. So this time, in order to avoid any ambiguities, we announced through the media that we would submit a formal request to the Ministry of Interior for holding demonstrations on the anniversary of the election. We are insisting on this demand. We promise and give assurances that no incident will occur. I am certain that if a march is held, paramilitary forces will attempt to turn it violent, but our people are wise, and politically mature enough that even if certain individuals come chanting radical slogans, the people have the ability to control the scenario and confront them. However, if authorisation is not granted for demonstrations, we will then decide what to do; but it is currently not possible to say much.

*Will you make this request along with Mr Mousavi?

I agree both with separate and collective requests. In his interviews, Mr Mousavi has expressed his accordance with this approach. In any case, we will discuss this. We can both make a single request. What is important is that we both agreed on [holding] demonstrations.

*You are among the few clerics who are actually fond of party-based activities and you have the experience of being the chairman of a party. Do you make your request through the party, does your party still have the possibility to be active? In recent months, certain parties such as Mosharekat [Islamic Participation Front] and Mujahidin [of the Islamic Revolution Organisation] have been banned and some parties are faced with other restrictions. Have there been similar measures taken against [your] National Trust Party?

Your question has a number of parts. Yes I am absolutely committed to parties and that’s why we founded the Association of Combatant Clerics. This is the only clerical party that has been officially registered. If we want to carry out organised party-based activities in a regime whose bodies are all reliant on the vote of the people, it is natural for factions to compete against one another and to be active. The reason for our parties not being empowered is that individuals have not been seeking parties. They were less willing to seek a majority base, pervasive organisation and the great forces. This goes against the spirit of parties and the multiplicity of opinions. Hence our constitution which is based on votes requires organisation first and foremost in order to obtain results. When they do not act organisationally, they will face singularity [of rule]. Regarding your other question with respect to the National Trust Party’s activities, I must say that restrictions have been in place against other party members and to a certain extent against me too. For instance the party’s office was shut down. The social party’s members do not hold meetings with each other and official Central Council meetings are not held. Even if they are held, we are worried that they might arrest some, and these are threats made by the intelligence bodies and have no legal basis either. But they have not yet said anything about banning the party, although the party’s activities are being severely hindered. Some of our members are in detention and there is great pressure on us.

Yet on an individual level, I have my own activities as well as my own office. Even so, its members have been summoned many times. They have even confiscated my sons’ passports and have banned them from leaving the country.

Raping in prisons

*Two of your sons have been barred from leaving the country as well as Mr Khatami. Are you experiencing any limitations for leaving the country or the city of Tehran?

Regarding Mr Khatami, I have heard that he has told The Association of Combatant Clerics that he was told [by officials] that this was an exceptional case and that he was not [officially] barred from leaving the country. But regarding myself, I have no plans to leave the country and I haven’t heard anything. If I wish to leave [the country], I have a passport and there shouldn’t be any problem.

There are no restrictions when it comes to leaving Tehran either. But as soon as I go somewhere, Revolutionary Guard forces accompany us and according to them, they inform the police force of that [particular] city, for carrying out their responsibilities. And instead of protecting [us], the police inform the [plan-clothed militia] so that they can appear there and harass us wherever we may go. This happened in Qazvin and Qom. In Mr Mousavi’s case, they even told him that ‘if you go there, these [militia] groups will target you’ and the police has issued such warnings to us numerous times. Even when certain individuals cause disturbances at the place of residence of me and my family, the police is notified but does nothing [to stop it] and they just stand there and watch. The [Basij] forces get official information from the IRGC and the police.

*Mr Karroubi, you wrote a letter of protest to Hashemi Rafsanjani regarding the rapes killings in the prisons of the Islamic Republic. Therefore, can we assume that you believe Mr Hashemi [Rafsanjani] continues to have an influential role to play in the power [structure]? And if so, do you think Mr Hashemi [Rafsanjani] has fulfilled his duties? What do you expect from him as someone who is both the chairman of the Assembly of Expert and the Expediency Discernment Council?

I have written two letters to Hashemi. One letter was regarding the issue of sexual abuse in prisons, in which I said that due to his position and his close relationship with the leader, this should be investigated, he forwarded my letter to the judiciary which led to the meetings during which I was required to provide evidence, but even that didn’t lead to any results and instead of investigating the case, other events unfolded. Then my office was shut down, our members were arrested, and the evidence and documents in the office were confiscated. Yes, at that time, I believed that Mr Hashemi could indeed be influential and to take action as they [the authorities] had high respect for him. But evidently, the situation was [quite] complicated and Mr Hashemi himself and his family are under relentless attacks and one can’t expect much anymore. I haven’t met with Mr Hashemi for a while now.

Torture

*Based on certain documents, you wrote a letter to Mr Hashemi accusing the regime of torturing opposition members and you announced that if required, you would have further evidence. Do you plan on releasing these documents?

I did not accuse the regime. I consider myself a member of the Islamic Republic and one of the children of this revolution and have worked in this field. We think about the best interest of the system and are concerned about it, so we must criticise. In different stages, I’ve had criticisms towards the performance of officials, and some of them have been published by the media such as the arrest of [Tehran] mayors when I wrote letters regarding the torture of the mayors and their unjustified imprisonment years ago.

During this last incident, as it was much more serious and severe, I acted with much caution and I did not give interview and wrote an unpublicised letter to Mr Hashemi and stressed that the issue must be investigated and that sexual abuse might have occurred in prisons. When ten days passed without a response from Mr Hashemi, we published the letter on [our] website out of a sense of duty. Instead of asking me to provide evidence for the investigations, suddenly all the country’s Friday prayer leaders launched attacks against me and I felt that this way they were trying to push me out of the scene. And now they are pressuring the person responsible for my website to deny [my claims] and to say that I had been tricked. They have even sentenced him to five years in prison regarding the [exposure of] torture. A number of people have been killed [in prison] and some [prison] guards have had to admit to the tortures. We weren’t there to see them and when I announced that some had come to me and told me [about the abuse scandals], they [the security forces] went after them and threatened [those abused] and made them suffer in such a way that the victims of sexual abuse were very fearful. They either fled [the country] or just became silent. They [the authorities] insisted that everyone should keep quiet [about the abuse]. They told me that it would cause embarrassment. A lady said that this [abuse] had taken place inside a police vehicle, and another man said that at a certain police station in a certain city something [else] had happened to him. This is very bad for [Islamic] system and at the very least we expect an investigation and examination of the issue without any commotion, so that the people’s trust is restored.

"Identifying the illness"

*Mr Karroubi, you have been one of the combatants against the Shah’s regime and after the revolution, you have held different positions such as parliament spokesperson. A great number of people currently in prison, also held high positions in the Islamic Republic. You and Mr Mousavi to have claimed that the Islamic Republic has derailed from the goals of the 1979 Revolution, what mistakes do you think you and others—who were involved in the Islamic Revolution—have committed?

One must always listen to opposition. A doctor also asks the patient different questions for treating him and tries to find the illness. The most important success for a doctor is to identify the illness so as to be able to prescribe medicine.

The first thing that needed to happen was to listen to what the protesters were saying and the security forces should not have had control over the judges. We say that the Guardians Council is to monitor but it should not have tutelage. When the constitution is not properly implemented, it is natural for people to protest. Instead of answering to the protests, they are oppressed. When I held a position, I was one of those who protested and lobbied at the same time.

They [the authorities] emphasise a few articles of the constitution and forget the rest. They only implement those parts of it which is in their own interest and the result is that a few protesters remain standing and the rest are isolated. A great number of former deputies and governors were thrown in jail and many were summoned and countless numbers were also isolated. And a great potion of them are still opposing [the situation]. They suppress the press which is faced with great pressure. The Culture Ministry, which is to defend the press, actually puts pressure on them to such an extent.

The Islamic state relies on the vote of the people and any group must try to obtain the people’s votes and if the people do not vote for them, they must not stay in power. But some want to stay in power by any means necessary and I am saying that this practice is a distancing from the [ideals of the] 1979 Revolution. This has caused conflict between the different forces inside the regime and this against the instructions of Imam [Khomeini] and the people.

Future election

*You mentioned two points, regarding the latter point; do you mean anyone that gets elected? Following the changes made in the municipal elections, any election in the near future has also been postponed. Under the current circumstances, parliamentary activities have become impossible.

I believe that elections must be held in due time. The elections for members of the Assembly of Experts are for a certain group and are on a small scale; therefore they can be held together with other elections. But holding municipal, parliamentary and presidential elections all together is not the right thing to do in my opinion due the sheer number of the electorate and candidates. They can postpone the municipal elections for two years in order to hold it along with the presidential election. But they can also say that there won’t be any elections held in two years anyway.

In a country where one of its first two presidents was martyred and the other lasted a year before it was stable enough, ... postponing elections is the same as laying the foundations for putting an end to elections all together, even though holding elections such as the tenth presidential election [June 2009] is not of any significance any way.

Imam Khomeini used to say that no one was born a dictator but that this took place gradually. When we reduce the significance of the election, this leads to making it insignificant and in the end it will result in an end to elections altogether. You gradually move towards dictatorship. Elections must not be postponed not even by a single day. [Following the revolution], many important events took place in the country, and even then it was possible to postpone the election, but this never happened.

"Extra privileges"

*You have stressed on the full implementation of the constitution. Some of your supporters say that privileges which have been granted to certain bodies are the cause for the status quo and believe that the solution is to modify the constitution. Do you agree with the opinion of this group?

I am not talking about whether or not extra privileges have negative or positive results. That is not what is important. Authority brings responsibilities with it, and if great authority is accompanied with responsibility and supervision, there is no problem. The government needs supervision. The leadership needs supervision. The Parliament needs supervision. If the supervision is carried our appropriately, too much authority does not create any problems, but if the privileges are granted with no supervision, that will create problems. According to the constitution, the current government has a great deal of authority, but unfortunately it does whatever it wants. It has disputes with the Parliament and the Expediency Discernment Council and its conduct towards the Parliament is inadequate. The government is subject to questioning, impeachment, probes and investigations. If they are implemented accordingly, these powers will not be problematic. We must view authority together with supervision. The current Parliament is trying, but is not powerful enough to confront the government’s unlawfulness. If the Parliament was strong enough, it would confront the government and its unlawful acts. The current government doesn’t even abide by regulations that it passes itself. Every year, it submits a budget proposal to the parliament, but it never implements the plan and wastes the country’s resources and spends it however it wants.

*You have stated many times that you do not consider Ahmadinejad as the legitimate government, but recognise his government as the one currently in power.

Yes, I recognise his government as it is in power. In any case, the government is in charge of security. When there is an attack on me or my house, I must contact the police which is a part of the government. When I want a passport, I must ask the government. But I do not in any way consider Ahmadinejad as a person whose rise to power has the result of the people’s vote.

"High price" for Iran

*Regarding foreign policy, does Ahmadinejad express the interests of the Islamic Republic and is he the legitimate representative of the people, or does he present his own views as the views of a head of state, especially when it comes to his controversial foreign policy?

Agreements, deals and understandings are signed between governments and in the case of Mr Ahmadinejad; he does so as the head of a recognised government. We believe that Ahmadinejad’s comments on the international stage has placed Iran in a passive position. His behaviour has come at a high price for Islamic Republic.

It is unfortunate when the head of Mossad admits that Ahmadinejad has served them in such a way that no one has served them before. And in practical terms, we see the sensitivities he has caused in the world and how they have served Israel’s best interest.

*What do you think of the current government’s relations with other countries?

I do not understand the reasons behind this government’s links with certain countries and leaders. Many of Ahmadinejad’s friends on the international stage have no strategic value for us and in the past five years, Iran’s relations with other countries in the world have weakened and this is all because of unwise positions that the president has taken with regards to the international community. Despite massive spending for persuading third-rate countries, even they are not willing to support his reckless statements.

*And regarding the nuclear issue?

Like the rest of the Iranian people, I believe that we have a right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes and I am certain that if we pursue our rights without creating controversy, other countries of the world—except those who have fundamental problems with Iran—will have no choice but to accepts along with our demands.

*What about internal policy?

In the past thirty years, no government has faced as much opposition from academia and religious scholars, as the current government. Iran’s academias are against Ahmadinejad and for this reason he is trying to change their very fabric. Officials have announced that eighty percent of the country’s academics voted for a candidate other than Ahmadinejad and in the religious schools, no prominent senior cleric was willing to congratulate Ahmadinejad for his victory because they had serious suspicions regarding his re-election. For officials of Islamic Republic who for the most part come from religious schools, this is a clear sign that many clerics were not willing to accept this head of state.

"Lack of legitimacy, competence"

*You have predicted that the Ahmadinejad government cannot last for a four year term. Do you any reason for this forecast?

I believe that in addition to the lack of legitimacy, this government has a lack of competence too. It lies with ease and it contradicts its own decisions and statements with no trouble. It enjoys no stability. This instability is the greatest danger for any government. On a given day, the head of state promises subsidies for certain segments of the population and the next day he says that we will give subsidies to the whole population. Experiences managers are either not willing to cooperate with this government or they are eliminated by the government for their political tendencies.

Many of our industries have gone bankrupt and plants are unable to pay workers. The president makes hasty decisions to establish a Crisis Management Committee without having any regard for the opinion of experts and scientific institutes and on another day he announces that six million citizens from must leave the capital without any prior notice or study.

Under such conditions and the sizeable opposition within the country, I doubt whether this government will continue for another four years.

*You and former president Mr Khatami have both spoken of a need to hold a referendum. What issues should the referendum focus on for resolving Iran’s current political turmoil?

One of the things that should be determined through a referendum is whether they [the authorities] are blatantly lying about the realities. For example, the unemployment rate is high. Whoever you speak to will say that we have many unemployed youth. But Mr Ahmadinejad says that Iran is a big factory [and there is no such problem]. Hold a strike and with great ease, you will see how many unemployed people there. The Guardians Council was responsible for making sure the Parliament did not come under the control of the government and that the government did not interfere in the elections. Hold a referendum so that people can come out and say if this is the case or the exact opposite is true.

Some member of the Assembly of Experts for the Constitution who wrote the constitution are still alive today. They say that after the Shah’s regime, they believed that there should be a system that kept an eye on the government so that it did not oppress the people and [they say that] their focus was always on the president in order to prevent him from abusing his position for illegally interfering in the election.

But now, the people say that they want to vote for themselves. The Guardians Council has a right to disqualify a candidate who is corrupt or is a spy, by presenting reliable evidence. But other than that, the people must choose and a few people should not be able to decide instead of a nation.

People's Movement

*Do you have any means or media for communicating with your supporters?

Besides our website, we have no other media, even my wife’s magazine was shut down. Right now I am worried that authorities might even cause problems for journalists if we invite them. Even this interview might create problems for some individuals inside the country. However, news is easily exchanged through the internet and among people and there’s nothing that government can do about it.

The Iranian people’s Movement is a movement with a large population and a considerable portion of this movement is made up of intellectuals and educated people. You cannot prevent the people from accessing news by censoring a couple of websites and closing down newspapers.

*Iranian students outside the country have been taking part in protests against Ahmadinejad. Do you support them?

No matter where they are, Iranians are a part of Iranian society and they have similar demands. Iranians in other countries also want their votes back and are certain that the election result was not authentic. Although I have no formal organisational link with then, I support their legal and peaceful demands.

*It seems that following last December’s crackdowns, no one dares come out onto the streets.

It isn’t so. Since the beginning of the Movement, tens have been killed by military forces during protests, but the families of these victims have been calling for resistance and perseverance until the realisation of our goals. However, the Movement has moved beyond the point of being present on the streets every day and we are now in the phase in which it is stabilising. The Green Movement is a reality and its widespread presence in society cannot be denied even if it does not make its presence felt in gatherings and protests.

Human rights

*Mr Karroubi, the Iranian regime executed a number of opposition members last week and had executed others in a similar way in recent months. Were they among your supporters?

These people had no links with many or any of the other candidates for that matter. They had all been imprisoned months before the election, even though [the authorities] tried to put them on trial during court proceedings held for protesters who were against the announced results of the election, in order to brand the protesters as terrorists.

I do not have accurate information regarding the case and the court sentences handed down to the executed individuals, but I am sure that their fundamental human [rights] were disregarded during execution and even their families were unable to have a final farewell with them. In my opinion, these executions were for instilling fear among the youth in the lead up to 12 June in order to prevent another round of street protests. However, the outcome will most certainly be different from what the executioners want.

*Mr Ahmadinejad has denied the tragedy of the holocaust on the international scene, do you share his opinion in this regards?

Of course not! In my opinion these comments were completely uncalculated and I have said numerous times that bring up the issue is in the Zionists’ interest. I have studied at religious institutes of higher education and therefore I understand religious matters much better than him. According to Islam, the murder of a single person is considered a crime and there were certainly more than a single Jewish person killed by the Nazis during World War II. But this genocide does not mean they get to occupy another people’s land. The Nazis killed millions of other people in Europe too, does this mean that they can conquer lands in Africa and Asia in order to make up for what took place?

You must know that in former Yugoslavia too, genocide was committed against Muslims. Does this bring special rights for conquering the land of others? We say no to that.

Relations with Obama

*What is your opinion regarding relations with the United States and the different policies of the Obama administrations towards Iran?

I am not a supporter of relations with the United States but I do not insist on enmity with it either. In my opinion, Iran’s relations with other countries should be defined independently and based on national interests. The truth is that we do not benefit from provoking the United States and being hostile towards it. At the same time, I believe that the United States is seeking to expand its rule in the Persian Gulf region. We must adjust our relations according to our national interests and in such a way that we do not become a neo-colony of the United States either.

Regarding Obama, he chanted some good slogans in the beginning of his presidential election campaign but the truth is that changing the core of the United States’ policies is beyond the capability of the country’s president. For more than half a century, Israel has been recognised as the United States’ strategic ally and for this very reason, all American governments have vetoed any important UN Security Council resolution against Israel. The veto right has been used countless times by both democrat and republican presidents in order to protect Israel. I believe that this is the case regarding Obama too.

*In recent months, Obama and the leaders of European countries have been trying hard to support the Iranian people’s opposition. Does this support have an influence on the Movement’s triumph?

As the current opposition to the regime inside the country, we have only one request from the leaders of the world. They can view the issues regarding human rights in Iran or any other country with an international approach. But regarding political matters, the Movement inside Iran can pursue its demands more easily without the support of outside forces. Sanctions have the sole effect of benefiting the Revolutionary Guards (or at least a portion of the military forces) through economic exploitation. External pressures only open their hands in suppressing freedom seeking forces within the country and linking them with outsiders.

*Mr Karroubi, if you are imprisoned by the Islamic Republic and you are to send a message to your supporters before going to prison, what will that message be?

I would say, ‘be aware and hopeful and continue your protests in the framework of the constitution.’