TRANSCRIPT: Al Arabiya's interview with Ocampo

The following is a full transcript of Talal al-Haj's interview with Luis Moreno Ocampo, prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, regarding the ICC arrest warrant for the Sudanese president Omar al-Bashit:

BERORE THE ARREST WARRANT WAS ISSUED

TALALAL-HAJ:
Thank you Sir for joining us for Al-Arabiya exclusively for the Arab audience

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Thank you for the opportunity, I like to reach Arab people.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Thank you sir. You said yesterday that you have evidence, strong evidence, against President Bashir and that you have more than 30 witnesses to solidify your case against him on the 10 counts that you have accused him of and asked for an arrest warrant. So, we have the impression that you are very confident that you will get the arrest warrant you have requested. Is that so?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We have a strong case, a solid case, but as the Prosecutor’s Office we are prepared for the worst. We are prepared for a situation where the Pre-Trial Chamber dismisses the entire case. And then we are preparing to have to appeal, have to make new argument, so, we have a strong case, but we are prepared for... in case the Pre-Trial Chamber dismiss the case.

TALALAL-HAJ:
So, if the judges find him innocent on all charges, what would you do, besides appealing?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
What we would have to do is read carefully why they dismiss the case, and then see if we have to appeal, you can appeal, so probably we’ll appeal. I think we have a strong case, but it’s the judges who for seven months were analyzing the evidence, maybe they have a different approach, and they are the judges.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Would you be prepared to, if after an appeal is submitted, and the judges still find no grounds what would you do then? Would you resign? Would you apologize to President Bashir for accusing him of charges that the judges found no ground for them?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We respect the law and we respect the judges’ decision, so let’s see what the judges decide. And if the judges dismiss the case, they dismiss the case.

TALALAL-HAJ:
You told me once that the Sudan government will be the first one, the first government, the first body to be informed of the decision of the judges. As far as you know, have they been informed already of the judges’ decision?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No I heard no one was informed. I don’t know the decision yet, so no one is informed. It will be a public announcement.

TALALAL-HAJ:
It will be a public announcement. What do you expect from the government of Sudan, once the judges’ decision has been made? Would you expect them to deliver, what do you expect exactly? What is next?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Sudan is not a failed state. The Sudan is an important country with a strong government and they are a member of the U.N. and they have to respect the U.N. Security Council resolution who provides jurisdiction for us, so they have to respect the law. They have to respect what the court decides.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Mr. Bashir yesterday had demonstrations, big demonstrations, supporting him and Sudan. And he told you and the Court, frankly, that whatever decision you issue you can put it in water and drink the water, put the paper in water. That’s an Arab saying to say, I don’t care, frankly. What is your reaction to these strong statements coming from the President of Sudan? And also what do you think of the popular support that he’s been having? There are demonstrations everywhere supporting him.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
But it’s not, I’m not in a presidential campaign, I’m not campaigning, I’m presenting evidence before the Court. And then whatever he believes, the Court, if the Court calls him, he has to come, that is beyond his will. So it’s not, he has the right to say whatever he wants, people in the Sudan can demonstrate in favor of him or against him. It’s not my business. We have evidence and if the Court decides to call him to appear in court, he has to do it.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Do you really believe that President Bashir of Sudan will come and surrender himself to the Court?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
If, I hope, if not, he will be arrested.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Ok, how will this arrest come about, can you tell me about it?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Wait, wait. No no. Wait for the Court’s decision. Because as you say, we are a few minutes before the decision. So, see what happens with the decision then we can talk how to implement whatever the judges decide. Because maybe the judges dismiss the case, I don’t know.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Just for argument and to be the advocate of the devil, they say that the threshold for issuing an arrest warrant within the Court is low, but actually proving your case in a court of law is much much harder business. Do you agree with that saying?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes. That is true. It’s the law. To prove, I have to prove on a reasonable basis, now, to get an arrest warrant. To have a conviction, I need to prove beyond…

TALALAL-HAJ:
…Any doubt

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
…Any doubt. So, that. But that’s, but that’s the Court of Justice. That’s why if he’s sure he’s innocent he can come to the Court. His side will be respected.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Ok, we are all waiting now for the judgment to come at one moment let’s see it together.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes. But they are not yet there.

TALALAL-HAJ:
But they are preparing for the…and we would like to know, and it’s about time, it is 1300 GMT. Our viewers I’m sure are very interested to see what is happening.

AFTER THE ARREST WARRANT WAS ISSUED INTERVIEW CONTINUES

TALALAL-HAJ:
Right now we have a special interview for Al Arabiya, after the announcement of the issuance of an arrest warrant for the Sudanese President Omar al Bashir, and right now we have the General Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Thank you Sir for joining us, and millions of our viewers who would like to hear more from you. What does this mean exactly, if you can explain in more details, to Mr. al-Bashir, the issuance of such a memorandum against him?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I think it changes everything. Today, everything changed because now the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant against Mr Omar al-Bashir. So, now, he has to face justice. His destiny is to face justice. Maybe he doesn’t like, maybe he refuse, but it will happen. It happened to Slobodan Milosevic, it happened to Charles Taylor. It will happen to Omar Al- Bashir. That is now is an arrest warrant pending on him. The first, the responsibility to implement is the same people in Sudan, the government of the Sudan has to implement, execute, the arrest warrant. The Sudan is a big country. It’s not a failed state. They have a legal responsibility, they cannot defy or reject the Security Council. So, I think, this is the first step. If not, in the meantime, as soon as Mr. Omar al-Bashir travels through the international air space, we will arrest him. He can be arrested and we will try to do it.

TALALAL-HAJ:
So you’re telling me Mr Omar al-Bashir, the President of Sudan, will not be able to leave his country? I understand 30 countries in Africa are members, 30 African countries are members of the ICC. Are you telling me that he will not be able to attend any AU (African Union) meetings for example or summit in Africa? He cannot go over European territories?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Maybe he can, but we will try to arrest him in the meantime.

TALALAL-HAJ:
How about the Arab Summit he intends to attend in Doha, in Qatar?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
That’s the point, as soon as he’s in international airspace, his plane could be intercepted and he could be arrested. That to me is the most easy and most likely way to arrest him.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Who will do the interception? You have no planes?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No. State parties or states who are committed to implement justice.

TALALAL-HAJ:
How long before you go to the Security Council. How much time are you giving the Sudanese government to surrender President Bashir to the Court, before you opt to go to the Security Council and ask them for help in arranging the arrest of President Bashir?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No, the Court has to, the Registrar has to notify now the Sudanese government. And I will brief the Security Council in June, first week of June normally I brief the Security Council.

TALALAL-HAJ:
And then you will push for the arrest of …

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I will say whatever happens. I will never know what happens. We’ll see.

TALALAL-HAJ:
You could have issued this arrest warrant under seal. That would have possibly given you a better chance of arresting President Bashir when he leaves Sudan. Why did you opt to have a public announcement on television, a press conference? Why didn’t you issue it under seal, which you could have, and maybe you improve your chances?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Because there are two precedents. Slobodan Milosevic, was public, and then he was arrested. The Charles Taylor, that indictment was sealed and the Prosecutor tried to arrest him when he moved to Ghana, and Ghana rejected, because you’re not arresting a Head of State when you invite him to your country. The state has to know we are requesting this, and they have to know clearly. So when we evaluate, when we assess the best way to implement the decision, we assessed the best way is to issue a public notice, everyone has to know, and the states will implement it. That’s why we did it publicly. So we followed the Slobodan Milosevic case, but in fact Charles Taylor was working after when the issue became public. Then after a couple of years, he was arrested. So you cannot arrest a head of state as a normal criminal. No it has to public notice. It has to be a clear process and then one day he will be arrested.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Is there the procedure of trial in absentia in the ICC?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No.

TALALAL-HAJ:
You have to have him here personally?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes.

TALALAL-HAJ:
You will finish your job here in 2012. correct?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Do you really believe that by 2012 Mr Bashir will see his day in court within your term?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
That is the importance of the permanent International Criminal Court, because if I can not be in court with Mr Omar al-Bashir, my successor will do it. If not, his or her successor will do it. So, we’re a permanent court, we can wait for Mr.Omar al-Bashir, the victims cannot wait. It’s not possible now that Omar al-Bashir, the airplanes of Omar al-Bashir keep bombing civilians as they happened 2 weeks ago in Muhajeria. Or is it possible that still women and girls in camps are raped? It’s not possible. So I don’t have enough journalists and commentators talking about how to stop the crimes. They’re talking about how to oh, Mr al-Bashir, but what happened with the victims. So, we have to give voice to the victims. They are suffering.

TALALAL-HAJ:
This was a referral by the Security Council 1593 in May of 2005. It was under chapter 7. So this is under Chapter 7, is that correct?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes. March 2005.

TALALAL-HAJ:
March 2005. but it’s under Chapter 7, and hence this arrest warrant is under chapter 7?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We are, the Security Council ordered this under Chapter 7. So, the way the Security Council can impose its will on the country. That is the U.N. charter. Adopted after the Nuremberg, after the Second World War, so it's the reason. And then, that’s my point. The Sudanese government is an important country. It cannot ignore the law, it cannot ignore international law.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Can you attain the arrest of Mr al-Bashir by force by another country?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We are not requesting someone going to the Sudan, not at all. So the U.N. forces have no mandate, they cannot do it. That’s very clear. So inside the Sudan it’s the government of Sudan who has to do it. As soon as he travels outside, it’s a different story.

TALALAL-HAJ:
You have the prerogative of adding genocide to the arrest warrant at a later stage, are you going to do that?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We did not read yet the decision, so we know what you know. I know it is 2 votes against genocide, one vote that passed in favor, I don’t know the reasons, so I have to read. I don’t know. We’ll see. One option is to keep collecting more evidence. One option is to appeal the decision. We will see.

TALALAL-HAJ:
So you still have options of appealing or more collecting. Can you just add it yourself?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No no no. I have to convince the judges first.

TALALAL-HAJ:
You have to convince the judges. Ok. There are those who say issuing an arrest warrant against a sitting President, which is the first time the ICC does this, is really regime change. What do you say to that?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We’re not talking about the regime, we’re not talking about the government, we’re talking about individuals. It’s about individual criminal responsibility of Mr Omar Al-Bashir. That’s it. Simple.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Hassan Turabi, a well-known politician in Sudan, has been arrested because he demanded that Bashir is handed over to the ICC if he is indicted, there will be a lot of turmoil in Sudan, how much does that weigh on your head? All this disruption of the peace process, all the effort that’s been put for years by the United Nations, by many parties to create peace in Darfur, all this will be under threat, how much does this weigh in your head?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
What is peace in Darfur? Let me mention the facts, there are 2.5 million people in the camps dying slowly. There are 5,000 people dying each month in the camps. A few weeks ago, they bombed the city, killing children, forcing the displacement of 26 more civilians. And you call this peace.

TALALAL-HAJ:
But the peace talks are going.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Peace talks yes. But peace is not having 2.5 million people dying slowly. That is what’s happening in Darfur today. So, please facts have to be recognized and these people have no voice. We have to give a voice. They are dying, thousands of them.

TALALAL-HAJ:
But you must have witnessed the latest talks between the rebels, JEM (Justice and Equality Movement) and the Sudanese government in Doha, they have reached an agreement and it looks very promising. Sudan is moving into development. There are a lot of good things happening under Bashir, you must admit. But this action by the Court, many say, will threaten the fruits which have been achieved now onto the road of peace and reconciliation with the other movements of the rebels. Can’t you see that point?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Mr Bashir has a responsibility to protect Sudanese citizens. Instead he attacks them. Mr Omar al-Bashir is saying that there is no rape in the Sudan, in the meantime, thousands, thousands of women and girls are being raped in the Sudan. M. Bashir states there is no attack to civilians, and a few weeks ago was bombing civilians in Darfur. So the words of Mr Bashir are not matching facts. So, I saw the facts and the facts show me that he, and the Court now decided, he is the person responsible of these massive crimes. So, any of these efforts in the Sudan now include arresting Mr Bashir.

TALALAL-HAJ:
Why did you accuse Mr Bashir alone. There are others who, I’m sure, could have been implicated in whatever evidence you have. Why did you accuse Mr Bashir by himself?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Because I need evidence. I cannot base my decision on political responsibilities. I need evidence. And I have evidence of Mr.Bashir’s control. I have a witness who gave me evidence about how Mr Bashir, personally, is involved in the different criminal activities. I have not the same type of evidence against others. I have evidence against Mr.Harun, yes. Against Mr.Bashir, yes. That’s why I prosecute them. Maybe you’re right, probably there are others, thousands of others involved. I have now evidence, today, against the most responsible because that is my standard. I always say, I will prosecute those most responsible in accordance with my evidence. And in accordance with my evidence it was Harun first and now Mr Bashir the most responsible.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
You have failed Sir, with all due respect, until now to get hold of two indicted persons, Ahmed Harun and Ali Kushayb, in Sudan, what makes you more optimistic that you can get the president of the country to surrender?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I think we will keep working, we will keep collecting evidence and we will keep trying to see how justice can be served. As I said before in two months, in two years, Mr Al-Bashir will face justice I tell you.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
The peacekeepers, the U.N. operations in Sudan, the U.N. is very worried about the safety of their workers, the safety of their employees. The Sudanese government said many times that we will abide by international rules and standards but we cannot guarantee the reaction of the man in the street, the people, so how worried are you about the United Nations operation in Sudan whether it is UNMIS (United Nations Mission in Sudan) or UNAMID (African Union-United Nations Hybrid Operation in Darfur) and does that worry you?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes, as long as Mr Bashir is free, I am worried because he is the one who ordered bombing he is the one who attacks these camps. I think keeping Omar Al-Bashir free is a danger for civilians in Darfur and of course is also a danger for those who are protecting civilians in Darfur.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
The AU, the African Union, Sir has been very supportive or Mr Bashir, you must admit that, and the Arab League has been very supportive of Mr Bashir, Sudan has been elected for the leadership of the 77 Group, I mean in many aspects Sudan has a lot of international support, what do you say to that?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
The African Union is against impunity, the Arab League is against impunity, they are supporting the law so I feel it is very important what regional organization are trying to do but it is very important to play together and this will happen.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
But the African Union also said in Addis Ababa, in the summit, the communiqué, that if the ICC issues an arrest warrant against Mr Bashir they will re-evaluate their membership of the ICC, 30 of your 108 members are African countries, 20 of those African countries were essential in setting up the ICC in 2002. How are you going to convince them that this is really not against an African country?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
They know, I don’t need to convince them. They know. Read what Bishop Desmond Tutu said yesterday. We are working to protect the victims, the victims are African, in the last Assembly of States Parties all the Africans they committed themselves to the justice. The last election of judges, 12 candidates for judges in the ICC were from Africa, so...

TALAL AL-HAJ:
So you are really confident that these African countries are just giving lip service to the President of Sudan in their communiqué at the African Union. They will not re-evaluate, they will not withdraw from the ICC, you are absolutely confident?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
African Union has a strong commitment against impunity. African Union in a specific plan includes to be a member of the ICC. African Union presents the highest number of candidates to be judges. African Union is a region most represented in the Court. Africa is living this Court.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Article 16, there are countries in the Security Council, they are not a majority, they are about 7 out of 15, they support the introduction of Article 16 and the suspension of the arrest warrant for one year renewable. Would you oppose such a move by these countries?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I have a judicial mandate, I cannot be involved in other aspects of politics, it’s not my domain, not my area.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Even it is helps and saves lives?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I have nothing to do with the Security Council activities; it’s their responsibility, not mine.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Can I say that you want justice at any price?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
What I say is the facts show that today there are 2.5 million people dying slowly and no one cares. The facts show 5000 people are dying each month and we don’t care, we are not doing enough. The facts show that 2 weeks ago civilians were bombed, so that are the facts.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
But how would you feel if more people die in Sudan due to riots, violence, because of this arrest warrant, how would that make you feel?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
What I am saying is my role here is to unveil the facts, the fact is Mr al-Bashir now is considered responsible of attacking millions of people so his crime has to be stopped. That is it, if we are not focused on that, we attempted to appease Mr Bashir for the last 5 years and it was not working. So what I say now it is a new situation. The Court decided it. Mr Omar al-Bashir has to be arrested.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Is there anything Sudan can do, is there any deal, is there any arrangement that can be done by the government of Sudan to stop this warrant or at least for the Court to support the introduction of Article 16. Is there anything you can ask them, suppose like the delivery of Ahmed Harun and Ali Kushayb, is there anything that can be done for the Court to rethink its position towards Mr Bashir or is it too late?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
The government of Sudan has to arrest Mr Ali Kushayb, Mr Ahmed Harun and now Mr Omar al-Bashir. That is what they have to do. And they have to announce a system to stop the crimes in Darfur and they have to assure these people and respect it. That is it.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
So nothing can be done to reach a deal?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We have prosecutors and judges, we cannot make deals. Of course not. But we, I like the idea of talking to the Arab people because I think it is very important to understand. In the past yes maybe the idea in dealing with Africa was wrong because people were colonizing Africa but here is a different situation. We are not saying someone from outside is attacking these African citizens. The problem is the same president, Mr Omar al-Bashir is attacking the citizens. Those, the victims are those who have to be protected by him and that’s why we do something different. That’s why I think they should intervene and I hope African Union and Arab League can succeed to stop this crime because that’s what we do together. So we are working for 2.5 million people who are African, speak Arabic and normally are Muslim, so it is not a religious issue, it is not about Africa, it is about a huge number of persons who are slowly dying that is it and that’s the purpose of our work. And people have to understand that and people have to remember that and repeat that.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
You say it is not racial, it is not racist but there are those who accuse the ICC of concentrating on the African Continent, most of your cases are on the black African continent. What do you say to these people who say “you are picking on us”?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I think it is interesting, impression, it is propaganda. What do I say to propaganda, Talal? What will 2.5 million African citizens, we are working in different African countries requested by the African presidents, we are protecting victims, we are working in Colombia, working in Georgia, working in the world. This is propaganda.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
If the case comes to Court and Mr Bashir here and the defense lawyer says to you “this is a man who created peace in Sudan, he put an end to the longest civil war in Africa between the South and the North which is a fact, he reached an agreement with the rebels, his vice president is from the South, this is a man who is helping the humanitarian aid of the United Nations to reach the poor people of Sudan in Darfur and other areas, how can he be accused of genocide and war crimes, what would you say to the defense?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
The defense has to focus on my evidence. The evidence showing the killing, the evidence showing the rape, the evidence showing how Mr Omar al-Bashir was controlling everything. That is what he has to do. Not, we don’t care about politics over here, we need a discussion on the evidence, that is what I would advise to his lawyer.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Ok, But there was a civil war, you must admit, in Sudan, between the tribes, the Arabs and the tribes, it was a civil war where people can get killed and people from both sides make mistakes. It happens, in America during the Civil War, it happened in Spain, it happened in Britain between the Scots and the English and if Lincoln for example lost the war would you have tried him with war crimes and genocide?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Look , all these cases you mention as the debate which no one believes was good to commit massive crimes and that is the new system in which the world learned that could be never again this type of crimes. And that we are working here, so exactly the point is the world is evolving and we can say this could not happen, but this means these massive crimes are committed, that’s it.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Mr Bashir yesterday had a big demonstration and he gave a speech and he asked, he spoke to his people and he asked where is the international justice when Iraq was invaded and Afghanistan, where was international justice when Gaza was attacked and crimes were committed in the prisons of Abu Graib. Many people in the Arab world agree with him, there is a lot of injustice done in the Arab world ,in Abu Graib, many people agree around the world there are crimes committed in Tibet, but China is not indicted, there are crimes committed in Chechnya but Russia is not indicted, and we can talk, I mean about Abu Graib and others but justice it seems is on the weak. The Security Council will never pass a resolution to refer to you cases in Tibet, or Chechnya or Abu Graib, what do you say to them?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
But this is what is so interesting because first it is a legal issue I cannot be prosecuting cases who have not accepted me, or if the Security Council doesn’t refer the case to me. But for instance the Palestinian Authorities came to my office and they lodged a declaration accepting the jurisdiction of my office in Gaza and we are carefully reviewing this including if the Palestinian Authority has the ability to accept my jurisdiction, other delegations are studying this and national proceedings. So we are doing this work on Gaza. Because why? Because the Palestinian Authority took the decision to come. Lebanon, if Lebanon were a state party I could investigate Lebanon crimes, crimes committed in Lebanon, but they are not, so those countries who want justice have to be members of the ICC then we will do it.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
But you did not answer my question about double standards Sir.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
We have no double standards.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
I mentioned, no not you, but in the world there is so much double standards glaring at us. I mentioned Abu Graib and U.S., I mentioned Chechnya and Russia, I mentioned… but these are permanent members of the Security Council and they will never refer, there will never be a resolution of the Security Council referring their cases to the ICC and they are not members and they will not do it even with Obama’s administration they are not likely to join and you know that. How about these double standards?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
It is not about double standards, it is about… I cannot expand my jurisdiction if, it is like a French prosecutor cannot be in Morocco.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
So it is a broken system?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No it is a system we are building, it is not broken. It is a new system we are building and my advice is if Iraq ratified the treaty before the war I could be involved there, I could investigate Abu Graib but I need a state, including the Arab states to join the Court. I have just three Arab states joining us; they have to join the Court that is how it can be involved. Join the Court I will apply one standard.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
So if Mr Bashir visits Jordan tomorrow or Djibouti who are members of the ICC do you expect Jordan and, or Djibouti, to arrest Mr Bashir?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
They have to do it of course, they have to do it. But also maybe they arrest him in the meantime, maybe they arrest him in the plane.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
While he is flying over?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Yes.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Ok, there are elections coming in Sudan, there is a referendum in the South coming, does this weigh at all in your mind when you issue an arrest warrant against the President of Sudan. There are a lot of things, good things, happening in Sudan.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I hope, look Sudan has many smart people and has a long tradition in history with Egypt the oldest civilization in the world so when you meet them you see how sophisticated they are and why it is shame this is happening and they have to change to stop the crimes, that is it.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
You are asking the President of Sudan to surrender, you also have a case pending against three rebels, you have been asking for these three rebels to be arrested as well and the judges have not yet given their decision. First, when do you expect their decision to be given, secondly, do you expect these rebels to surrender themselves?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
That is important because I cannot mention to you the names of the rebels but some rebel commanders are volunteering to come to The Hague to appear before the judges. And what we are doing is asking the judges to try to make an expedited decision.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
When do you expect it?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I don’t know. But it is very important because I think it will show the Court is involved, the rebel commanders also have to respect the law.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Do you really believe the rebel commanders will come and surrender themselves to the court being accused of crimes in Haskanita in killing United Nations soldiers?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
All the various groups say that.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Wait to see?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Wait to see. Yes.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
You have accused the Sudanese government agents are frightening the witnesses, and to say they lie under pressure. What makes you think the witnesses were telling the truth in the first time?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
When we evaluate the evidence we make a very thorough analysis, we compare testimony, we check data, we have a lot of data, how the documents do, when someone is lying we realize that and we will never present a witness who is not reliable.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
But these witnesses you have, over 30 witnesses, most of them, all of them are approached outside Sudan and mostly the opposition most likely again...

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
No, some of them are, were members of the government.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Were members of the government, but they are in opposition that’s why they live outside.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
But they were afraid, some of them left Sudan because they were afraid of what happened to their mothers, families, they stay, because they saw what happened in time.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
But many Sudanese would argue well these people are dissidents, they live abroad, they will of course witness against the president, they have an axe to grind, they have a purpose of lying against the president because they are against him that’s why they live abroad. Why would you believe them?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Well that is a point. We are not looking for political dissidents. We are trying to eliminate any political dissidents off our list of witnesses and we are trying to have witnesses who basically were victims, witnesses who were in some way involved in the operations and they know what happened also were a witness, so that, we are not doing a political investigation, we are doing a criminal investigation, we are looking for evidence that is what we need and in fact now the judges confirmed and they did it in a way because they dismissed one of my charges, they dismissed some evidence that we have, so, Ok that is their prerogative but that is what this Omar al-Bashir has here, the Court of Justice who will evaluate the evidence and who will make decisions.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Do you expect the United Nations to continue talking to President Bashir now that he is indicted man, they have a lot of operations, they have to deal with the government, they have to deal with President Bashir in Sudan, he is a de facto ruler of the country. Do you expect them to continue working to ensure the safety, the working of UNAMID and others?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I think now is a new phase in which the states have to adapt to a new reality. Omar al-Bashir is indicted he has got to be arrested.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
So you expect them (the U.N.) to talk to him?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
All the states in the world have to adjust to this new reality. It is a new chapter.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
I just want to ask you one last question, I know our time is up. With regard to the Palestinian issue do you believe that you will be looking into investigating that issue in the near future, will you be taking a decision soon enough to investigate the crimes committed in Gaza during the attack of the Israelis?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
I have to make a decision according to the law that is what I will do. When I cannot say because the Palestinian Authority are promising me to come with reports, the Arab League is saying they will produce an investigation, the Palestinian Authority are also saying they will provide to me with some reports about why they have jurisdiction because that is a legal, important legal issue. So we, before making any decision we have to be totally sure that it will be a decision according with the law, that is what I have to do, and that I will promise, I will do that.

TALAL AL-HAJ:
Mr Ocampo on this historic day thank you so much for giving Al Arabiya this exclusive interview on the reaction of the Bashir judgment. We thank you and wish you well.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate your effort because for me it is very important. I have to represent the entire world. I came from Argentina and I saw what happens when your own government attacks you. I was a victim, no, I was not personally a victim but I living in a country where the dictatorship attacked citizens and that is why I know the meaning of that. And that is why for me it is very important that the people in the Arab world understand we are doing the best effort we can to respect all the persons involved and also to do justice. We have to investigate crimes that is what we are doing, we are not against any group, on the contrary. We really appreciate support and will appreciate support and understanding from the Arab community. You understand how much they suffer and this is an opportunity to show we are protecting Arab people. Those victims are essentially Arab. We are not talking about Swedish victims, we are talking about victims who speak in Arabic, they are Muslims, they are from Africa. We are protecting them and then sometimes I think we are not clear enough on this. So thank you very much for your support for me to talk to people from the Arab world. Thank you.